cnovels | Discussion Friday

geraineon posting in

Time for Discussion Friday again!

This time, inspired by my very rapid descent into a Chinese otome game that tried to be culturally sensitive by translating "哥哥" (older brother*) into "childhood friend" in English, what are your thoughts and feelings about incest/pseudo-incest in fiction?

If you enjoy it, why do you enjoy it?

If you find it uncomfortable, is it for all incest/pseudo-incest related tropes, or are there situations where you are more likely to be okay with them and situations where it's a squick?

(Feel free to share any other related thoughts. I trust you all to be respectful to each other's preferences in fiction!)

*brother, very loosely, because it is not always someone related.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

geraineon

I'm gonna start the ball rolling: I love it.

It's like childhood friend with that angst of forbidden love, and I love it both ways, either the elder sibling being taken care of (finally!!) by the younger sibling, or the toxicity of the whole dynamic of growing up together as siblings twisted and twisted into something incredibly messy.

I know a lot less people are okay with intergenerational incest, but I have read them and I enjoy them too, so if you wanna talk about intergenerational incest stories, feel free!

From:

aurumcalendula

I can see how that's compelling!

From:

autodach

OMG what a translation choice XD

I like incest well enough, though it's not super high on my kink list. The forbidden fruit and all that. It needs to be actual blood-relation, otherwise it's lame.
I dislike-pseudo incest, especially when it's done not for its own sake, but as a cop-out to avoid actual incest.

From:

geraineon

I understand why they did it XD I guess it's to prevent any drama about "problematic incest ships". But it is weird to hear the audio going "gege" (if playing in Chinese) or "niisan" (if playing in Japanese) and the EN sub saying "childhood friend" and it definitely changes the dynamics of this couple, imo.

I dislike pseudo-incest when it's basically a "get out of jail free" card too. Like, commit to it if you're gonna do it and not suddenly reveal that one of them has been adopted! I don't mind if the story leans into the forbidden fruit thing, even if pseudo-incest, because growing up together as siblings as also lead to complex feelings about crossing the line.

Edited to add: also, the uneven power dynamic between people who grew up together who might have always been in a role of protector/guardian vs. protected/ward, so even if it's pseudo-incest, all these things are still present.

Edited Date: 2025-04-11 07:25 pm (UTC)

From:

autodach

not suddenly reveal that one of them has been adopted!

Ugh I was reminded of a particularly bad offender, Fire Emblem Fates. In this game, you can romance and marry your step-siblings and siblings. Expect if it's the latter, your spouse will suddenly be revealed to be adopted. Noone in this family is blood related. How convenient!

so even if it's pseudo-incest, all these things are still present

Yes, that makes sense. I think in the end, it comes down to what you're trying to do, if you're leaning into it, or trying to somehow play the incest kink save. The author needs to be into it, whether it's incest or pseudo-incest.

From:

geraineon

Oof, that's disappointing. Truly a cop-out.

From:

anehan

Like, commit to it if you're gonna do it and not suddenly reveal that one of them has been adopted!

I find that adopted thing interesting in a baffling way, because the only forbidden aspect it really removes the genetical similarity, which really only matters if the characters are going to have children. All the power dynamics etc. will stay intact, which makes it feel even more of a cop-out to me. Like it's a cop-out that doesn't even bother to actually cop out much anything.

From:

geraineon

I think it just shows how much people do not understand that the problem with incest is not just genetic similarity, it's also about the dynamics.

From:

larryhammer

I'm more comfortable with pseudo-incest than incest, but not with how it is often used as a way to avoid committing to the bit. I like some aspects of the trope, specifically when it's used as a way to explore taboo desires and power dynamics. As a kink in itself, I'm kinda meh -- it doesn't float my boat, but whatevs floats yours. Power dynamics, though, either embodied or inverted, and transgressions -- those I like.

I'm, um, let's say iffy on some translation decisions.

From:

geraineon

As an incest, enjoyer, yes, I hate it when it's used as a way to dodge.

Has there been other instances where incestuous or pseudo-incestuous relationships were erased by translations?

From:

larryhammer

Other than the sort you mention, I can't think of any off the top of my head.

From:

full_metal_ox

This is a Japanese example, but I can think of an anime series whose initial English sub accidentally created an incestous relationship as part of a character’s backstory; Zelgadis from Slayers, uncertain of his exact relationship to his master Rezo, speculates that the latter was his grandfather or great-grandfather—and somewhere that “or” became an “and!”

From:

larryhammer

Lol

From:

full_metal_ox

As if poor Zelgadis’ genome hadn’t been bollixed up enough by Great/Grandpa’s magical bioengineering.

From:

geraineon

oh no! XDDD

From:

douqi

Did you read my mind, because I was just thinking about incest earlier today.

Wait wait, that came out wrong! I was specifically thinking about incest as a literary motif and how it's so prevalent across so genres types of East Asian popular/pulp media, and also in Western Gothic/Gothic-inspired works. Then I fell into a Google Scholar rabbit hole which yielded some interesting results that I'm still sorting through, but a danmei-related snippet from this article (paywalled, but I've got a copy that I can share once I write all this up) says:

In Chinese language, the phrase 'luan lun' has richer connotations than its English equivalent ... The word luan denotes confusion and disorder, while the word lun refers to kinship, human relations,
order and meaning. The primary function of the incest taboo in feudal China was to prevent the disruption of both family and social order.

tl;dr — it's subversion of/resistance to patriarchal power structures. Another article I read about the incest motif in shoujo advances te same argument.

Anyway I find it fascinating as a literary motif, especially one that features so heavily in so many genres.

Re: pseudo-incest — insofar as c-novels feature pseudo- instead of full-fat (as it were) incest, I wonder how much of it is due to platform content rules. IIRC JJWXC doesn't allow it now (if it ever did)? I vaguely remember meatbun posting on Twitter that she'd love to write pseudo-incest, and then added that she'd write real incest if the platform wouldn't censor it to ribbons. Absolutely no international readers seemed to pick up on the fact that she was talking about incest btw, because she referred to it using the Chinese online slang term, orthopedics.

From:

aurumcalendula

That's really interesting and sounds like a fascinating article!

From:

douqi

My Google Scholar dive has turned up quite a lot of interesting stuff! Hoping to write up a sort of literature review and post it (though probably under lock, lest people yell at me for 'supporting incest').

From:

liliacs

That sounds like a very interesting article! It's funny that you brought up Western Gothic because when I saw this discussion prompt, it made me think that my favorite incest ship was the two sisters in We Have Always Lived in the Castle (which doesn't have canon incest, but does have resistance to patriarchal structures).

IIRC JJWXC doesn't allow it now (if it ever did)?

Huh, this made me realize that I've always assumed there was an incest tag that JJWXC removed, but now I checked, and the tag I was thinking of is just "forbidden love". I assume it must have been used for incest in the past because I saw locked incest novels with the tag, but I don't know if they were allowed or just dodging the censors.

From:

geraineon

XDD Maybe the stars just aligned for incest discussions!

Thank you for linking that article! I got it through my university access. Looking forward to reading it, and your thoughts when you're done writing it up！ (I'll also toss it into the community drive later!)

That's interesting. It certainly is a very common trope! (which makes all the pearl clutching about it in the EN online spaces so stupid... like, your own literature also have lots of incest/pseudo-incest tropes!)

Hahaha, I suppose orthopedics is extremely removed from incest/pseudo-incest if one does not know the lingo.

Edited to add: The article mentioned is now in the cnovel comm drive (check resources! it's locked)

Edited Date: 2025-04-11 09:49 pm (UTC)

From:

anehan

Maybe it'd be a good idea to link to resources posts from the sticky? They'd be easier to find that way while still staying locked to members.

From:

geraineon

That's a good suggestion. Done!

From:

larryhammer

"orthopedics" heh.

From:

lessonsinescapology

Orthopedics... *dies laughing*

From:

aurumcalendula

Incest tends to squick me out. w/r/t pseudo-incest, it depends a lot on the characters in question's dynamics and how they feel about it.

I've run into some of the kinda the reverse (siblings with platonic feelings towards each other pretending to be a couple to conceal one's identity) a few times.

From:

geraineon

What kind of character dynamics and character feelings towards it makes pseudo incest okay/not okay for you?

I think I have seen the reverse but somehow my brain is not coming up with examples.

From:

aurumcalendula

Mutual interest is a big one - like I don't mind if one party is really repressed or slow on the uptake w/r/t their feelings, but if things are completely one sided I'm probably not going to want them to get together. I also like when there's interesting (and shifting) power dynamics and push and pull between the characters instead of them being pigeonholed into one or another.

Sha Po Lang wasn't really my thing, but I wasn't squicked by Changgeng and Gu Yun's romance. On a semi-related note, I'm very curious to see Hua Xiangyi and Qi Zhuyin's interactions in Qiang Jin Jiu since Highlight for spoilers! *(assuming the marriage that's been talked about in the last few volumes goes forward (I've been attempting to avoid spoilers)) the former will be the latter's stepmother.*

re: the reverse, the ones that came to mind for me were Highlight for spoilers! *Qiyan Agula and Qiyan Nomin* in Clear and Muddy Loss of Love and *Li Ningyu and Lao Pan in* The Message (athough tbh I found their relationship in the 2020 adaptation more interesting than the book's).

From:

geraineon

Mm, mutual interest contributes to so much of the delicious messiness I enjoy!

Re: SPL and QJJ, tbh these did not strike me as incest-trope forward at all. For SPL, there's very little yifu-ing from Guyun's end. For QJJ, they are all already adults.

Did the 2020 adaptation of The Message change the relationship dynamics?

From:

aurumcalendula

tbh SPL didn't strike me as especially pseudo-incesty either (although I think I saw some people on Goodreads freaking out about the yifu stuff). Yeah, re: QJJ (and I think Hua Xiangyi is a bit younger than Qi Zhuyin).

We got to see their interactions more in general - a lot of the book involves unreliable narrators talking about stuff after the fact (the 2020 drama kept the unreliable narrators, but did more showing vs telling). In the 2020 drama Highlight for spoilers! *Lao Pan's driving motivation is desperately attempting to rescue his sister despite the fact that he has no idea how to contact her superiors (In the 2020 drama he's a burned KMT spy and she's a CCP spy. In the book they're both CCP spies by the time the story starts).*

From:

liliacs

I like it! I'm good with either incest or pseudo-incest, and same generation or intergenerational.

I want the characters to be weird about each other. Especially if it's not canon, it's hard for me to get any shippy vibes if their relationship seems too much like a normal family relationship. The appeal for me is in the taboo nature, codependence, messing around with boundaries and power dynamics. I enjoy the younger partner having some power/authority in the relationship, because I feel like it adds to the whole thing.

From:

geraineon

Yes, that's that delicious flavour, the chew!! The codependence, the power dynamics, the boundaries, push and pull and crossing lines. Love it!

From:

snowynight

I like incest/pseudo-incest when the taboo aspect is explored. The characters know it's a bad idea but they still go for it. It has to be a secret or they face consequence from family/friends/society. I don't like it when their friends/family/supposedly normal people wholly support their relationship in a society like ours.

Incest used to be allowed in jj in olden days, but it's banned now, so writers have to write around censorship. A writer used to write intergenerational incest in 2008-15 on jj. The works are all locked.

From:

geraineon

It would be weird if family/friends/society are immediate okay with it, yeah. Unless it's a world that's quite removed from ours, with very different social norms (and depending on how closely related)

Which writer is it that wrote intergenerational incest? I wonder if it's possible to still find their works somewhere...

From:

snowynight

南枝 Nanzhi. Most of their work are n't translated, but you can find them by searching their name on Chinese internet.

From:

lessonsinescapology

I have no problems reading it. Personally, unless they're related by blood then I don't see it as "incest". I find this new generation's panic over age differences between characters and pseudo-incense to be weird. Considering everyone in the past pushed the limits to allow for freedom of reading or writing, and now the new fans become morally outraged over little details like a 5 year gap between a CP or adopted siblings.