Discussion Friday

[geraineon]

Oops, I did not notice a skipped a week!

For this week's discussion Friday, let's talk about books that involve toppling governments/taking over/changing things from the inside/etc.

What are your fav c-novels with that theme of revolution/change?

What makes it work for you? When does a story like that not work for you?

If you haven't read a novel like that, feel free to talk about adaptations, or your dream novel.

Interpret cnovel as loosely as possible! (Originally in Chinese? Originally in English but you read it in Chinese [will be great to know what you think about the translation too!]? Chinese writer in a language other than Chinese? Everything goes!)

Comments

[geraineon]

I'm mostly here just to get recs TBH!

But I'd like mine to have a bit more burning things down and murder.

QJJ is great! (I'll come back to this later, I need to work...)

[aurumcalendula]

I'm really looking forward to seeing how things play out in QJJ!

[silverblade219]

Diaspora Chinese novel, She Who Becomes the Sun by Shelley Parker-Chan seems like it would fit. Gender bend reimagining of the rise to power of the Ming Dynasty. I really liked the first book but haven’t read the second one yet

[geraineon]

I keep meaning to read this!

I have heard lots of good things about the first book!

[aurumcalendula]

No worries!

I think JWQS might fit - burning it all down is definitely Qiyan Agula's aim and Highlight for spoilers! *iirc she does manage to get her revenge on most of the Nangong clan and Emperor Nangong Rang (things get complicated later when Nangong Jingnu becomes Emperor).* imho it doesn't quite stick the landing, but I find it compelling.

QJJ is working very well for me so far! I especially enjoy how complicated things are w/r/t politics and how multifaceted it lets characters be.

[geraineon]

Yes! I love how multifaceted QJJ is too, and allows everyone to be fully 3D with their own motivations.

It's usually hard to stick the landing for these type of stories, I feel.

[douqi]

Climbing High by Po Po Po (a baihe court intrigue novel) was very interesting on that score. It's about a fictional dynasty where women have only recently won the right to rule, be scholars, and hold high office (courtesy of a female emperor a couple of generations back who staged a coup and fought a revolutionary war to take the throne). At the time the novel starts, we have a female emperor assisted by some fairly recently-elevated female ministers, and there's quite a lot of planning that goes into how they entrench the fact that women are men are equal now, and how to prevent backsliding into the past. What's also intriguing is that middle-class women are part of this effort as well, as they strive to keep hold of their newly-gained equal inheritance rights, rights to education, and right to have an equal say in the household (and in some cases to lead the household). The political plotting, especially in the first half, is very sharp and clever.

It appeals to me also because I like 'after the revolution' stories. It's all very well to overthrow the big bad, but what happens after that? How do people build a resilient system that can't be easily taken over by the next tyrant who comes along? And why were the Chinese dynasties so singularly bad at it?

[aurumcalendula]

Ooh! That sounds really good!

[douqi]

ngl I started reading the novel because I'd heard the porn was good, only to get super invested in the political plot instead (for my money, the porn between the tertiary characters was excellent, but the porn between the secondary and lead couples was pretty meh, because there wasn't enough emotion backing it up).

[geraineon]

That does sound really good!

I like that it's about maintenance and also making it more future proof.

mm, lots of stories don't deal with what happens after... and there's always an issue when there's a power vacuum after you topple a terrible regime. and sometimes those who succeeded in overthrowing the old regime are not the best in building a new era.

[douqi]

So true! Which is why a couple of years ago I wrote a short story trying to resolve the Northern Song-Liao wars with... the 11th-century version of the Erasmus programme. Also idly toying with the idea of a woman who sets herself up specifically to do the dirty work bits (murder, torture, more murder) of overthrowing an empire while knowing that those very acts will turn her into a person who is completely unsuited to building a new regime (I have an obsession with characters who embrace damnation for a greater cause/because someone has to do the bloody work).

[amarylilac]

I really liked 當年鐵甲動帝王 by 步廉衣 (not sure if there's an English translation though)!

The story is about the main character (leader of the revolution army turned first emperor of the dynasty) being reborn to a time when they have not succeeded in the revolution yet. His actions this time around change his relationship with his most valiant general, who is actually transmigrated from a distant futuristic world. Only the first half of the novel is about the revolution though; the rest is about establishing and running the new dynasty.

The transmigrated vs the reborn trope could easily turned out to be very silly, but I really enjoyed how the author portrayed the couple's relationship, especially their differing values. And the story have a much more serious plot line than I expected when I learned of the premise XD

[dayadhvam_triad]

! Think I have this on my to-read list, but guess here's a reason to bump it up XD

[snowynight]

I really love this one! I love how the main character takes pain to change the general's fate.

[dayadhvam_triad]

Forgive me, for I've turned into That Obnoxious Fan... XD; but I really like how 3K Workers portrays this. Beyond the novel's main focus on battle, the societal changes are initiated in the background through the MC's behavior singlehandedly raising the (low, low, low) bar of morality during that time of warfare, plus her anti-gentry actions which clear out space for increased literacy, women entering officialdom, etc. so we see the effect in what gradually becomes acceptable and thus accepted within society (or, at the very least, those who don't like the changes don't have the strength to negate it).

Another story I recently enjoyed was 妄人朱瑙. It's set in a fictional dynasty that's disintegrating and nearing its end; MC starts as a businessman in the Ba-Shu region, ML is a general in another region, they become allies and reestablish a central govt. (One amusing aspect: though the dynasty's fictional, the author really likes their RL-history expies lmao.) I particularly liked how the story's mostly narrated from the perspective of supporting characters, not the MC. The wrap-up of the plot at the end was kinda weak imo, but a solid read nonetheless.

What doesn't work for me... This only applies to transmigrated characters, not characters native to the historical period, but if the transmigrator's mindset becomes essentially indistinguishable from that of the period except for their foreknowledge of future events (no disconnect or values clash), I'll DNF because ugh what's the point of the transmigration then, if I want a character with foreknowledge I'll go find a timetravel story. More relevant to the topic of the post: when the revolution/change is very simplistic in nature, the story might still work for me if I can tell the author isn't taking it too seriously or it's not their primary focus (more frankly: the appeal of the story is based on other aspects), but it won't work for me if I can tell the author believes they are srs bsns depicting the revolution (thinking of a not-cnovel which I personally found didactic, straight-up wrong at some points, and unimaginative despite its initially appealing premise).

[geraineon]

XD Nothing to forgive! I am an Obnoxious Fan who keeps bringing up my fav titles too!

妄人朱瑙 sounds really interesting. Stories about rebuilding/creating something new is rarer than stories about tearing something down.

And yeah, I'd love it if the context from the transmigrator's background/original world comes into play more seriously/more often.

(I'm curious about the not-cnovel you mention here... if not comfy with it, dm?)