Discussion Friday

[geraineon]

Time for Discussion Friday again~

Transmigrations recently came up as a topic on here so let's talk about transmigration stories! Are there any settings/time period you think are under-utilized as a setting for the transmigrator to come from? Are there any settings/time period you think are under-utilized as a setting to transmigrate into? What are some of the things you wish these type of stories will do better? Have you read a particularly good story that uses this trope/this story setting really, really well?

Comments

[geraineon]

I know transmigration into the future exists, so I should probably read more of that. But hm, different time periods + different locations is something I don't think is common (it's usually time period within China) but I think to expect that to be done as something more than a surface level gimmick might be a little too high a bar to clear for many authors, unfortunately.

[larryhammer]

For future(istic) transmigration, I recommend It's Not Easy to Be a Man After Travelling to the Future.

[geraineon]

Oh, I'll add to my TBR. Thank you!

[larryhammer]

I once plotted out a timeslip romance that had a knight from shortly after the Norman invasion jump 3 centuries forward, to the mid-1300s, the time of the War of the Roses and the Paston family letters -- including cultural shocks over just how much society (and warfare) had changed in the interim. Never wrote it because of the research load.

But along those lines, I've sometimes pondered a timeslip or transmigration from the Southern Song, possibly during the Yuan takeover, into the Northern & Southern Dynasties, or possibly the Eastern Jin. So many political parallels but also so many cultural differences.

[geraineon]

I'd love to read that story! But yeah, the research load is a lot... Maybe that's the main issue. Interesting transmigration setting from and into means double the research work.

[ehyde]

One fun take on transmigration I enjoyed was Are You OK, where transmigration is common and people dying, then waking up as someone from the future is a normal occurrence. There's even a bureaucracy in charge of keeping track of them (and controlling whose hands their technology ends up in), but needless to say, things don't go according to plan. It starts out as a comedy, a lot of playing with tropes, but turns more serious. It's not really a novel but a collection of interrelated short stories, and it's labeled danmei but I'd contest this label too (there's subtext; there's not more than subtext).

PS the version now on novelupdates is mtl, I saved the previous translation, which is rough but I'm still pretty sure by a human being

[ehyde]

There have been some transmigration stories that, after the initial setup, seem to basically forget they're transmigration stories and just engage with the historic/fictional setting on its own terms. I actually like being constantly reminded that somebody's from another era, otherwise what's the point? Not everyone has to go as far as Are You OK of course.

How to Survive as a Villain had the transmigrator MC reveal his true origin to the ML pretty early on, and it was interesting to see which problems that "fixed" and which ones it did not (comparing it to, say, SVSSS, which had a similar premise but with the protag explicitly unable to reveal).

This comment is only slightly related to transmigration but I remember a while back I was wondering if there were any cnovels with a "Prisoner of Zenda" type of plot setup (commoner who looks identical to an Important Person has to impersonate him for Reasons). I'd love to see a "convince everyone you're really the person you look like" plot that wasn't transmigration!

Hmm...I honestly don't know enough about Chinese history to talk about specific time periods I'd like to see more of, but I would like to read a reverse transmigration, someone entering the modern world (I know there are some, just haven't read any yet!) It would be interesting to see language barriers in transmigration (Are You OK did this in multiple ways, with the transmigrators writing simplified characters being a minor plot point/joke, and with one (minor character) transmigrator being a british tourist who got hit by truck-kun while vacationing).

[geraineon]

This comment is only slightly related to transmigration but I remember a while back I was wondering if there were any cnovels with a "Prisoner of Zenda" type of plot setup (commoner who looks identical to an Important Person has to impersonate him for Reasons). I'd love to see a "convince everyone you're really the person you look like" plot that wasn't transmigration!

This is gonna haunt me but I'm sure I've either read a summary or read parts of a novel with this as the plot. I can't remember the title!

Re: Language barriers

This is not c-novel but every time I think of language barriers + portal fantasy, I think of Find the Moon, a Fullmetal Alchemist and Gundam Wing crossover where one character (Duo Maxwell from Gundam Wing) crosses over to Fullmetal Alchemist's world and they could not immediately communicate because different languages: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1789944/1/Find-the-Moon

I wish there's more actual acknowledgement to the difficulties past the surface things a transmigrator or an isekai-ed character will experience!

[geraineon]

Ah, I've had Are You Okay on my mental tbr for a while already. I think I mentally filed it away as no-CP. Did the previous translator take down their translation?

[ehyde]

It was only available in a google doc in the first place, and yeah, it's been taken down. I only happened to have it saved because I find it hard to read google docs on my phone.

No-CP is a fair label. The extras are more shippy than the main stories, but they're about minor characters and even less connected to the main story -- one is very cute and one is tragic. And the original translator didn't finish the extras, so they're only available via mtl.

[geraineon]

ah, I wonder why... was Are You Okay ever licensed?

(of course, there are plenty of reasons why a translator would want to take their translations offline, but licensing tends to be a common reason)

[ehyde]

Not licensed afaik. I think it was removed around the time jjwxc announced some translation policy of their own and a lot of fan translators either took things down or added more security in response. The original novel was also locked on jjwxc, apparently in response to harassment around the time the donghua came out, but I don't think the translation's removal was related to that.

[geraineon]

ah yeah, I remember that happened... hope the translator is okay.

[aurumcalendula]

iirc, I've read (at least part of) half a dozen or so, but I think only one of those (Royal Road) involves someone transmigrating just across time instead of into a book or a game. SVSSS is the first one I read in the genre and remains a favorite of mine.

[geraineon]

It does seem like a lot of transmigration stories are into books and games from my limited c-novel experience. I enjoyed SVSSS a lot too.

[ehyde]

I guess the plus side of books and games is you can get away with doing less research. But even in novels without transmigration it seems like it's more common in cnovels to avoid the real world, with plenty of modern setting stories taking place in "City A" and the like.

[ehyde]

Hmm, after seeing other responses I wonder if it's just that the real world/real history transmigration novels are less likely to be translated.

[aurumcalendula]

Maybe it's a bit of both?

[geraineon]

omg this is not a c-novel but I am suddenly reminded that there's a HK drama where the Yongzheng Emperor of Qing Dynasty transmigrated to the future, along with his assassin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King_of_Yesterday_and_Tomorrow

It's comedic XD

[aurumcalendula]

Neat!

[halfcactus]

I generally struggle with transmigration stories (particularly the concept of a character taking over the life of a different person, fictional or not, combined with the self-insert-y nature of the trope) and ORV was the only one that I felt did it really well but it's 1) not a cnovel, 2) not really transmigration in the conventional sense.

I did enjoy Scum Villain because it was a fun little romp that didn't take itself seriously.

[geraineon]

Is it because of the taking over another character's life (done not convincingly? or something else?) or the self-insert wish fulfillment part of it that many novels with this trope might lean towards?

Yeah ORV is kinda different (I don't even know how to describe or summarize it XD)

[halfcactus]

Both! I'm averse to the "takeover" aspect when it comes to relationships because usually the other party doesn't know that the MC is a whole different person. And the self-insert-iness can get annoying if the goal is to make the MC look ~awesome~ through the knowledge they learned from the real world/future. Like it's fun the first few times but it gets old the more you read the genre. XD Admittedly I'm more adjacent to het romance ones where the MC transmigrates into a book/game. XD The ones mentioned in this post that are about exploring specific time periods seem pretty interesting!

[geraineon]

it'll be nice if it's takeover horror... actually, there are stuff written from the POV of the people around the transmigrator, and I do like that POV.

Yeah, all the historical/specific time period stories sound very interesting!

[snowynight]

I really like transmigration stories that explore how the transmigrator struggles to fit in or not (eg: language barrier, cultural difference, etc). In "Time Travel to the Daily Life of the Qing Dynasty", the heroine makes the best of her situation (married as a future emperor's concubine) and would be considered lucky, but she would have returned to the present without hesitation given a choice. It's obvious how she has to constantly hide herself to survive the restraint of the ancient royal court, even to the end of the story.

There used to be more stories that transmigrator go to different periods/world with their own bodies. I like the potential when a person from our world transmigrated into an omegaverse/animal people universe/etc and need to hide/deal with the difference. Transmigration into alien planets/non-human worlds are cool too.

[geraineon]

Mm, transmigration seems more like a gimmick if it doesn't seem to affect the character much other than surface level things (unless it's comedic, I guess!). "Time Travel to the Daily Life of the Qing Dynasty" sounds like a good read!

Do you know roughly when is the transmigration to another different world type of story was more popular?

[snowynight]

Disclaimer: I'm more familiar with BG and BL romance web novels published after the beginning of JJ (2003)

The trendsetter of modern transmigration novel was a romance novel published in 1993 in Taiwan. It was a big hit when published, and influential to the romance genre.

Chinese web novels in mainland China roughly started in 1997 and started to get popular in 2000s. The first JJ transmigration romance that became a great hit was published in 2004 and was hailed as among the 3 classics of Qing Dynasty transmigration romance. I would say mid-2000s was a starting point.

As late as 2011-13, transmission to the other world was huge in BG romance, when the heroine was often a spy/hitwoman and had a large reverse harem. You can see the influence in book transmigration romance

An early BG book transmigration romance was published in 2012 and a reaction to that.

Dudebro transmigration novel was greatly influenced by the popularization of A Step to the Past (published in 1994 Taiwan) on the web in early 2000s. It has have become popular in mainland China since mid to late 2000s.

Transmigrated into the World of “Demon Lord Wu Zun” and The Reader and Protagonist Definitely Have to Be in True Love (both 2013) established the BL book transmigration romance. They both both satirize/react to the Gary Stu harem tropes in dudebro novel. That's why I included that bit.

[geraineon]

Thank you for sharing!

I remember A Step Into The Past! I loved that show, though my memory of what happened exactly is a little vague now. ... the only thing I very clearly remember is the main character introducing chocolates to this old couple and wondering why ppl in ancient times liked to talk facing away from the people they are talking to XD

What's the title of the 1993 Taiwanese novel that started this trend?

[snowynight]

穿越時空的愛戀（Love Across Time) by 席絹 Xi Juan

[duckprintspress]

I'd really love to see more reverse transmigration (person from a book ends up in our world) and/or more use of historical settings that aren't really old. Somewhere-or-other where I hang out (I don't think it's here???) they keep talking about how cool a Republican-era transmigration story would be and I'm like. YES. Give me more like that!!!

I think the most interesting take I've read on it, though I haven't finished it cause the Bilibili app died, is I Want to Be a Big Baddie, which was a manhua that appears on the surface to be about two transmigrators but is actually soooooooo much more complicated than that. It has Unlimited Flow elements, too.

[geraineon]

There were mentions of it last week or two weeks ago on here iirc (it's what sparked this discussion friday topic XD)

Reverse transmigration will be fun.

Does that manhua have a novel version?

[duckprintspress]

to the best of my knowledge it does not, it's only a manhua. The Chinese title is 我要当个大坏蛋. It's about a young man who makes a deal with a system and is cast as the villain in every story he's in, and the main character of those stories who always seems suspiciously like the same exact person just ported to a new setting. I think that's probably the best I can manage without spoilers, lmao. First setting is a modern high school drama, and there's a post-apocalypse zombie dystopia setting, a sci-fi setting, a cultivation setting, and I think there's one after that but I lost access during the cultivation setting.

[geraineon]

I feel like I've read a novel that's exactly this plot but not that title (though the other person is not quite a transmigrator in the traditional sense I guess).

[geraineon]

Sharing a response from in_the_bottle on fedi:

Ok, this is sorta in reply to geraineon's post for c-novel discussion Friday about my fav transmigration novel. Seeing as I'm all about the transmigration/rebirth trope, the list got a bit long.

I've split it into different historical periods, and most are modern day transmigrated to the past. I've linked them to the legal source if possible, but some have been removed from jjwxc and I've just put up whatever link I can find on google. I have no idea if any of these have been translated to English, but since I've read them in Chinese, I've just linked them to the Chinese source.

There are more, but I think I'll leave it at this for now as its getting long. 😅

The Spring and Autumn period
无纠 by 长生千叶
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=2960164

Western Jin period
簪缨问鼎 by 捂脸大笑
https://www.zhenhunxiaoshuo.com/zanyingwending/

Tang Dynasty
盛唐不夜天 by 云长歌/青鸟临星
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=2570764

南北杂货 by 报纸糊墙
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=2965103
(Not quite sure why they classified this as BL cos its coming across as mostly gen to me and a very very slight hint of BL if you squint and look sideways at it)

Song Dynasty
宋帝江山 by 睡神玫瑰/绍兴十一
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=1575719

造化大宋 by 捂脸大笑
http://www.txtnovel.vip/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3874600
(This is set in the same universe as 簪缨问鼎 , only a few hundred years later where someone from the 簪缨问鼎 parallel timeline transmigrated into the 'normal' Song dynasty timeline)

升官发财在宋朝 by 放鸽子
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=2396059

Ming Dynasty
天下 by 梦溪石
http://www.txtnovel.vip/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1160642

穿到明朝考科举 by 五色龙章
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=3146671

帝师 by 来自远方
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=2490908

Republic Era
穿越之文豪/民国之文豪 by 决绝
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=3850070

外科医生穿成民国小可怜 by 大河自西
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=4243835

Made up Ancient Times
山河不夜天 by 莫晨欢
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=3968720

冲啊，太子殿下 by 遥的海王琴
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=3952297

(Ref: https://blorbo.social/@in_the_bottle/113652292782259216)

[dayadhvam_triad]

oooh thank you for sharing this! Some I have read, some I have not /eyes

山河不夜天 features one of my favorite side characters, though the main ship didn't do much for me. I remember 天下 being pretty solid (... though again the main ship didn't do much for me). And the author 来自远方 has written quite a lot in this genre across different periods.

[in_the_bottle]

Yeah, I've read a few by 来自远方 and some I couldn't really get into. 帝师 was one of the more memorable ones, with some parts really moving and other bits just hilarious 😂

[llonkrebboj]

Omg!!!!! This LIST.

A vote for 无纠 and 簪缨问鼎 which both feature sickly main characters.

(无纠 is one of my favs for scene rereads!)

Would rec this one to the person who wrote this list xD which is another of my favs [三国]在全员美人的家族做谋士 (which is a newer novel than these)
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=7145150

I also enjoyed 帝师, but it was not sickly 🤣

[geraineon]

I forgot to post the second half of the recs: https://cnovels.dreamwidth.org/39260.html?thread=788316#cmt788316

And will pass on your rec!

[geraineon]

I forgot to include the second half of the recs oops:

Here are a few that I think are quite good. Might not be to everyone's taste but hopefully whoever's looking for recs will like them!

谨言 by 来自远方
http://www.txtnovel.vip/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2580563
(This is the one that I thought got a bit OTT in the end in terms of tech development)

穿到民国写小说 by 菌行
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=5895431
(This is mostly figure skating, which is kinda interesting to be set in Republic era)

穿到民国当法医 by 络缤
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=5594909
(Case solving! NCIS China Republic! lol!)

回到民国开百货 by 雁过寒潭
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=5146734

民国之文娱大亨 by 云依石
https://www.jjwxc.net/onebook.php?novelid=3687108

(ref: https://blorbo.social/@in_the_bottle/113653429055839270)

[dayadhvam_triad]

My cnovel reading over the past year has mostly been transmigration into a real historical setting--I've read transmigration into a game/book/fictional historical setting too (and I particularly enjoy it when a story goes hard on the metafictional aspect), but the history-based ones are my catnip lol. So the following is mainly about that sub-genre.

Random observations of what I've seen:
- two people swap souls back and forth across periods (Republic of China <-> modern-day; Han <-> Tang)
- historical figure transmigrates into earlier historical figure (Li Shimin [Tang] -> Liu Shan [3K]; Shangguan Wan'er [Tang] -> Guo Nvwang [3K/Wei]; my favorite is actually Zhuge Liang -> Liu Bian AND Liu Bei -> Dong Zhuo [both 3K -> late Eastern Han], except the latter did so more than a decade earlier so by the time Zhuge Liang arrives history as he knows it has already changed lmaooo)
- modern-day person transmigrates through multiple periods (-> Qin -> Han; -> Ming -> Song; the one where MC jumps around to meet famous poets)
- modern-day person transmigrates with some fantastical ability (could be telepathic communication with their twin, could be a system, could be the ghost of a historical figure who instigated the transmigration to find someone to change the past, etc.)
- historical figures travel to and from the modern-day (I recently read one where Qin Shihuang, Emperor Wu of Han Liu Che, and bb Li Shimin all come to the present and run into some communication issues /tip of the iceberg)
- a crack-played-straight take on the Zhihu meme of "if Zhuge Liang had [infinite amount of ramen/penicillin/a T. Rex/a Star Destroyer/etc.] during the Northern Expeditions, what would happen" actual LOL

Fictional historical setting, but I read one where the MC comes from the modern-day and later discovers that her mother also transmigrated, but from the WWII years. Her mom breaks down in tears when she tells her about what's happened and changed in the decades since. I see very few transmigrators coming from the Republic of China/WWII time.

What I want to see:
- more physical-body timetravel instead of soul transmigration. The latter is way more prevalent, and I understand why—character gets an established identity! how convenient!—but the thing is, I'm interested in seeing that inconvenience! essentially, it adds to what snowynight said about exploring how people struggle to fit in (+1).
- less of a top-down approach. uhhh how to put it, you kinda accept that there is a self-indulgent aspect inherent in this genre where the protagonists are more likely than not going to aim to gain power/become the top ruler/yadda yadda, and as a result they pay lip service to the changes in society but gloss over the real impact. I want to really, truly be sold on the transformation in attitude of people native to the time period.
- more set in the pre-Qin Spring and Autumn/Warring States period. Pure personal bias, because I've read less of that compared to all the other dynasties that came after. And I've noticed I enjoy the stories set in earlier periods (Qin, Han, 3K, 16K/Northern & Southern) more than the ones set in later ones (Song, Qing), maybe because of the roles/goals that the female protagonists get at least in what I've read.

What I don't want to see:
- all the Qidian(-style) novels that usually come with shitty harem subplots. I like the kind of story that deals with infrastructure building and/or military conflict, and these purport to do so, but goddamn so many of these suck so badly. I'd rather take silly crack premises than SRS BSNS bland characterization (likely with bonus misogynistic lens), I don't think I've been able to finish a single one...

What does this really, really well:
I'll refrain from annoying tl;dr about Good Morning! Workers of the Three Kingdoms, but it is hands down my #1 fave for this genre.

[geraineon]

Everything you've read sounds so interesting. The swapping back and forth I imagine can get quite chaotic if the author is not good with the writing/planning.

a crack-played-straight take on the Zhihu meme of "if Zhuge Liang had [infinite amount of ramen/penicillin/a T. Rex/a Star Destroyer/etc.] during the Northern Expeditions, what would happen" actual LOL

XDDD this is amazing.

qidian novels are starting to sound like those power-fantasy harem isekai Japanese light novels that's a dime a dozen right now.

[dayadhvam_triad]

tbf Qidian novels aren't all like that—The King's Avatar (gen, one of my faves) was serialized on Qidian, and so was Lord of the Mysteries (which I haven't read, but hear it does well by its female characters). I've just had very off-putting experiences on that website for this particular sub-genre :x still remember looking up one author praised for the depth of historical detail/accuracy in their writing, checking out their Spring & Autumn period novel, and seeing the MC comment on their post-transmigration half-sister along the lines of "she was barely a teenager but already so beautiful even before marriage, she would def be a great beauty, what a pity they were siblings" IN THE FIRST CHAPTER

me: ......... /viciously stabbing close tab button

[geraineon]

... I'd expect that type of lines in stories where the point is smut, or it's meant to be a messed up story but I am assuming this is neither.

Does this subgenre tend to dominate?

[dayadhvam_triad]

Indeed it is neither :(

Do you mean dominate on Qidian, or dominate something else? If the former, I don't think so, but caveat I basically don't go to Qidian except for checking out recced novels.

[geraineon]

Yeah, I meant in Qidian. Thank you for sharing!